Beyond the Spin 2010 election forum – Asylum seekers, immigration and citizenship

so I’d like to welcome you all the years night to the first a 6abc and federal election discussion plan I’m so sick in here beside the best best or whatever it is to publish a link that out you can think over the next four weeks we’ll be presenting a different discussion floor of each Monday night and come on those they’ll be here in a new home theater in the new building this manifesto me being here it’s quite impressive allusion to our real estate each forum will take a look at the big issues facing us in the coming election will be joined by some of a in years top keepers and academics both as well as a number of video political commentators who helped us dissect the Swami’s and expose the real issues that face the nation tonight’s first form looks at issues surrounding asylum seekers immigration citizenship it gives me great pleasure to actually introduce the well-known panra personality Genevieve Jacobs Drupal 6 ABCD cameras afternoon presenter who is going to moderate our discussion Portia’s allowed to do that I’ve got the bio expose mr. Eaton gonna be broke in a family farm in West swallow complete with a large bramley garden which obviously valued divulge my secret story near and maybe she’ll talk today after school she look fainted University experimenting more I don’t know if that’s he or not no I’m had wasn’t it that’s me and she ended up working as a rural journalist on local and regional papers across the south west slopes where she covered everything from darts toilets which lies and huge no politics as a freelance journalist is written for national guard and finance magazines lectured widely con artists and gardens unusual combination she’s also a CT and southern New South Wales coordinator for the australian open gardens see the arts starting environment history and politics and family issues Genevieve’s passions but I’m told she’s including incurably nosy and she enjoys ferreting out people’s individual stories and loves nothing but it is like that tonight Mesa politics we’re thrilled to have dinner get a big moderate first beyond a spin election forum and gives me great pleasure to work with her now thank you so much and the first thing I’m thinking is that I must fix that fire on the triple six wings I you think I’ve done nothing but plant daffodils for the last 50 or 20 years but look thank you very much indeed in the introduction and welcome to the first of this series of lectures that are being presented jointly by the anu and by triple 6abc camera as we approach the federal election in just a few weeks time and if we are talking big issues then for my money this is absolutely the one and as several the specs on the panel here tonight know when we’ve discussed this a comedian in recent weeks the phone line is just light up instantly when we mentioned issues concerning immigration asylum seekers and refugees my money it was probably the only point very genteel debate last night began to show a little bit of life I think whichever side of the fence you sit on it’s inescapable that immigration refugees asylum seekers resident very deeply indeed the Australian Elektra so we’ve assembled together a panel of experts this evening who have tackled the issue personally for all sorts of angles among them activist lawyers academics eating’s I what has been on one of those downloads on the panel this evening Kim hall towards the end Kim Turkish refugee refugee politics in the school politics and international relations he has been on one of those works when his family fled Vietnam sitting next to you professor Kim Rubenstein his professor and director of the Center for International and public law at the ANU College of Law she’s interested in the standards of citizens what that means and in addition to her scholarly work she’s also in several times on citizenship banners in the High Court professor Penelope Matthew who holds the frolic foundation share here at the anu she’s got a wide range of experience with the legal issues surrounding immigration and refugee law

and has in the past I’ve I the UN High Commission of refugees regional office on a Pacific Solution dr. James job is adjunct professor in the Australian demographic and Social Research Institute with a special interest in ethnic and immigration issues in democratic politics and on my right Barry and Nikki who’s worked with refugees and nylons for almost 20 years she’s been a migration agent and while working for Democrat Senator and regardless visited every Detention Center but was operating at that time including now room with accepted sex experience on set up committees and ministerial submissions just before we begin a few ones on how this is all going to operate the same thing I’ll be starting the discussion mileage we’re going to have a panel discussion first and followed with the questions there are several broad areas that will move through including our international relations humanitarian concerns perspective on numbers our immigration beans processes and citizenship so please do have faith that we will get to the topic you’ll have plenty of time at the end to ask questions although there is a really important cabbage and that is that you have to ask a question and not make a statement if you make a statement I will cut you down otherwise just think of me as Tony Jones in a skirt so walking okay if you have a question at the end we’ll have a column of roving microphones so when we get to the time questions just raise your hand catch my eye and try to make sure that those microphones get you I think the whole thing will probably take around an hour maybe a smidgen more but let’s see how we go i’m sure there is no shortage of opinions in this room so let’s start it off and train stop i’m going to go to you first how many refugees arrive each year how many of those arrive by boat well just complicate matters of course the humanitarian program does not consist only reaches the larger part of it consists of people who have relatives in Australia and who come from war-torn areas and they receive these of them there’s no problem of that one refugee numbers actual refugees are defined as people have come within the province gratitude and that is people who have to display genuine fear of persecution in the coming battle and loans are going back to improve them being persecuted are the personally or work or collectively now all they think puts fingers now that again divides between those who get visas many corporations and trinity of australian government and you united nations markers they have been often very frequently to be living in camps are we have to sell their self patient service area and they again come at Pearl residents intimacy and they are ready to the third gallery are the asylum seekers there is people who come here in to wipes both those seeking asylum on the family annihilations convention or which we are a cinema there are those who’ve come by looking now to get a plane ticket which means they have a pleaser possible because the airlines will not issue you with the ticket of national no strong in pieces and they are generally speaking these sensitive the one in cases are look and then there’s the I go to work really which is a one Lawrence which is those who for various reasons come products and there are mythical present situation mainly people who have goddess cards into these which is dollar city which looks secure fit to look after an hour to say that they don’t have a particular rights because they’re not see then they take off for Indonesian now it’s been added to those of those taking off directly from them so these these come by the private arrangement semi criminal people and they are picked up now a long way off the Australian goes in the last judge of cases and initially good officers are such of courses on the church so when you have our refugees that have realized

they were broke but the whole humanitarian canada is very small setting up early thousand present time and within of those the asylum seekers are four or five they talk about tiny hierarchy within the overall immigrant population what’s up a gr bollywood appropriate population last year was permanent settler settlers who are having the 50s colleges very hard so I 158,000 of whom 35 thousand dollars old singers regular basis okay penrith you want is what is refugee on for all well it’s defined me 1951 conventions are aging to the service refugees as amended five to nineteen successful program relating to the stage with refugees and under those two treaties to which Australia is a party a refugee is a person who’s outside their country of origin owing to a well-founded fear of being persecuted for on a fire religion nationality membership of a particular social group or political looking so there’s the definition you’re teaching and I’m interested in the experiences of two people on this panel key important you were here with Vietnamese refugee parents at a child when we had a really significant wave of arrivals tell me about your experience well we we came in 1979 after being on a refugee camp in Labrador Malaysia and proceeded reasonably well bloody strength public so i suppose the question i asked my students is the same question i’d love to hear some of the panelists address oh not so much what’s the difference that’s interesting too wasn’t such a big issue that I suppose that’s what your initial comments were trying to get to is the proportion of boat arrivals in particular is so it’s a small compared to overall immigration why would an animate the Australian discussion why would it be a leading topic in in the great debate last night on saturday the blue of course is very different under dr. fraisers awesome and what sort of role that paying your parents decisions about this country and how they’ve got about being accepted here well they were very glad to go but the refugees will always talk this out like that they’re very glad to go wherever you ever taste whoever takes them so they’re in first choice was not necessarily Australia but there was certainly happy to come 11 of my dad applied to to be a waiter in turn for the seven or eight months so he genuinely was happy to go anywhere but Australia he was particularly happy to go to Australia but it wasn’t out necessarily out our destination England mayor Dickie your experience is also interesting here please respect our budget are working with Bosnian refugees and we’re talking in terms of where people come from and why they end up here take you through that story well when the Bosnian war broke out are you going to become part with me incentive program at the same time I was working for the library rehabilitation center of the portrait trauma and Briscoe which is daddy coming in when you’re gone since then so we worked with religious families from Bossier when personally sponsored by fenders to come over us the next sort barking period whenever it many refugees in those walls internal habit I’m just compare that to the Vietnamese experience it’s interesting to think that we’ve got a situation here where the Vietnamese refugees as kim says worth our sailors miserable skills of what war one in Boston and I park my truck nami that there was something several normal or what but but a strange or commodity measuring programa giantess corner so there came under that sound like how are they assumed they were well received and in Australia I mean 20 or fish I practice through millions of working authorities and the mood of the strike look the public changed with Pauline Hanson and it changed in 96 and even when she began to announce our nation’s policy on refugees then you’re right thought it was quite an astounding biosecurity basis of terrible things are constable and and it was interesting to watch how our government adopted that and they adopted up in concert with refugees k Rene that I had to get initially we have taken possibility geez you’re in there buck and they end in public so we want them known as always been straight across for a little stroll so they pitch later they took the refugees in and they took my movies that’s when it began but then about some refugees and it changed to objectification I guess interesting thing of those experiences is my bursa take place in the context of walls of conflict and in current ways of refugees to the past Ozil conferences which we’ve got very engaged as people i think i think we’re not very good because it

looks up in horrible i suppose but when what’s falling slowly dissolved you’re watching a metropolitan country dissolve you’re watching people that you can actually sort of empathize me and it’s not some far-flung place like that afghanistan what is it no i was just really introduced into the discussion in the TV some comparative analysis from Europe actually I’ll just work on comparative citizenship policy and if you play some of the broader citizenship issues in a basket which we’re doing tonight in a book by mark Howard on politics of citizenship in Europe he analyzes the different european countries approaches whether they had a liberal immigration citizenship policy as well and in terms of the 15 older European member states four of them had quite strong liberal policies and he also had a look at the countries that are some recent members of the european union and those that had started off with restrictive citizenship policies and had actually moved to being more level and he picked up in his analysis that whenever the broader public view was included in the discussion that there was always restrictive Immigration and Citizenship policies but when the elites of government negotiated and involve the King participant stakeholders you had the more important clue support not so as our experiences we can describe that that’s right no I think it’s really about a questionably person to how one goes about developing policy that has caught some net impact on issues to do in conclusion of membership of the community and has what might have at some level in fact I’m time perhaps a broader sort of democratic principle an opinion that is likely to lead to less sensational qualities was a nice married one that can you recount that situation where there was the fellow who linger off the bus with his massive it was a family who was actually a fellow family would get off the bus they’ve been in common with the 90 center pin if anyone I’m sort of housing facility that had quite good facilities a hot zone bathroom etc and if his mother was quite open issue as I was in her late 70s or early 80s and she was incontinent and they moves them to these to me the next one singleton and they wouldn’t get off the bus because she wasn’t going to go into a camp where she had walked the toilet late it was winter and the twelvers follow along my way and I think I think what it was in the second he can is the trauma of leaving your country you know anywhere else in Estonia and then coming to Australia and having to move again Jim you know it was that sort of trauma so in they got off the bus there’s a whole lot of people would get off bus of weak simple just sick and tired of making that it was a silent for a while that then blew up and that would then the first time you saw the press action say yes people are grateful yes no it’s better either it was being and my mother came in she was in by Miguel around sylvania you know that’s of nonsense that the ungrateful that’s when well it brings up an interesting point Kim Russo I want to ask you this the notion of citizenship often seems to be a core of our concerns here The Australian’s don’t believe that non citizens deserve our protection is that is that a fair comment um I think it’s actually a broader link between citizenship and immigration energy clean refugees I mean I think it goes back to a script really to do with earlier stream Federation in terms of an unappealing within the framework of the instrument constitution that really does distinguish between citizens and non-citizens or aliens more particularly and its really been picked up in different ways throughout the screen history and I think there is that confirmed underlying notion that term as non-citizens and non-members we as a community horses the script have the choice to determine that we can come to give here at the whole cultural control of those mountain power and that really distorts much broader legal policies that have a much more inclusive approach this race responsibility in international environment and also in terms of human rights in circles that go beyond citizenship first it wouldn’t be the only country that does that I mean I used to be up till say what World War one it was a lot of freedom movement they weren’t like this or really strict immigration close that we’re now used to so a lot of countries have gone along its path and in fact the Refugee Convention is really an exception to that and acknowledges that in certain situations people are really disenfranchised they might have

the citizenship in theory of Afghanistan or wherever it is they’re coming from but they’ve loved stood in practice because their rights are being protected and so the convention is really about trying to give them a status that gives them something a little bit of human too many systems you to try and fill that gap I think often that’s lost in the debate and our politicians aren’t explaining that there’s a need to fill that gap some people preparing what other obligations under international law towards people reclaim to be refugees well first of all we’ve got some discreet obligations under the Refugee Convention which in many ways are quite limited but the Cardinal one is that you shouldn’t return a person to a place of persecution and then there are series of other obligations that you basically get more rights as you become more closely attached to their countries so because I’m once you’ve given lawful status you’ve got the right to work there’s no obligation to grant citizenship under the Refugee Convention there is not the barrier to facilitate naturalization under Convention and then of course there a broad array of general Human Rights instruments that of course also acknowledges because they’re human beings so right to liberty like to work under the International Covenant on it Cultural Rights all of those human rights obligations apply to refugees and how do you be legal obligations that we have under existing international Lord differ from those of our neighbors this comes into a record suggestion about the East Timor solution as opposed to the no resolution if I’m in fluid that way well one of the issues facing people who are fleeing somewhere like Afghanistan is a lot of countries in the Middle East region are not party to the refugee conversion so they’re uncertain about whether you’re going to be safe or in fact return to a place of persecution they might not have other basic human rights like the right to work or education for their children so not surprisingly basic to move on they encounter our region and there are a lot of countries in our region that are also not party to the refugee convention or the protocol so they’re not really safe there either are there for what they seek to come on two to Australia well I guess the question of what is your view is why is it our obligation Marian tific spoke about people coming from Bosnia and Kosovo refugees we’re looking at Penn from Afghanistan and first three later Kim’s family came from Vietnam why is it our obligation to look after their speed with their final end up here after a long journey through many other places we’d like to know if you end up yeah he did trigger action during operations on the boundary condition so and that’s why the exhaust air trees can’t walk for a visa conferences on your mother’s arms optic puncturing began about the Beijing you have to be in crisis assist and so that that means that our production but as far as people who gave me a humanitarian bed boy I you know we have an obligation of them the five convention countries only are 10 have actually entered into an agreement Idris adoption to resettle refugees like we do and in our regional museums going to do that so if you should have common humanity would you would you say that way fundamentally it’s an ethical and moral obligation that that one can see all the brave man to face and probably a few minor ones to Good Samaritan more there’s an Islamic nations of trees people moving away from their arms feeling the same way to Mohammed mystery and you know this humanitarian a humanistic wants to even just pure everything I suppose that you can imagine being delivering your I’m like we want something to give you an answer I want to know they also do it for because Australia largely regarded as it would shift some Australia would like to be represented on the security prison so we have a relationship and they have relationship with us switch to some extent limits them from criticizing us but also means that they will cooperate with us in choosing the source of refugees for a schematic the freedom that they feel most desperately of so how do you have an international relations the trouble is that the whole convention is now being seriously criticized and some people set on the probability breaking down because of the last numbers in Megan Europe coming up rather than actual numbers here you actually are currently responsible

probably 16 million people and straight only has trouble to me that’s another frightening fitted they said we don’t want to do that ? skin and say why does straighter expect Pakistan for example hoses and whatever question was is evidence of innocence if we’ve got humanitarian obligations could we not equally well exercise them by resourcing and funding and supporting national trial packs damage like the North Vernon of refugees isn’t that that’s where more of our resources or to go yeah and if we do some of the work there already but obviously we could do more we could also do more with development assistance and we’re not the targets of the UN have suggested that we meet on that so there’s all sorts of ways we can help refugees but one way is to accept those who do make it to our shores because it’s really a very tiny percentage of the worldwide refugee population and if we don’t take people we’re basically saying to other countries don’t become hardened don’t accept operations we’re not really leading by example subscribe if it’s one of the mistakes Kevin recommend the relationship we will release it really exactly Indonesia to you after this team to reach their indonesian answers what have you ever done for us I’m sure we keep their tummies feel more awake father’s estate it really is very cheap to expect much poorer countries Australia to carry out these up L don’t you go to our guests anymore I just have to say something like this advocates revenge really but having been involved in the Easter Marines ref test cases for Refugees as an advisor and I was one of the lawyers having to deal with the frustration of running that case is day to day there was a period because we recognize Indonesian control where we said that the st mary’s have both indonesian citizenship and fortunately you so we can ship them all portugal and now we’re to anyone are saying deported least a war but you can take the refugees that we don’t want to process on australia i would be averaged in artists and writers well let’s talk about some of the solutions that will put up during the last few years and Mary have you been to all the detention centers that we we previously had including the offshore detention centers what’s wrong with holding the boats elsewhere working out who is genuine issue is Mabel the problems of detail and done and it’s two versions that there’s a simple solution which I’ve got great details on there and as we give our solutions which is just concept with detail and end up and that concept those problems because you have to ask who’s what we go process the first process that’s thirsty video processing the UN actually our processes amor I already do in Indonesia where a lot of people leagues that simple to come here anyway and the problem is not the processing the purpose of UNHCR the problem is that once it process your possible to track them so if it’s processing center you need then to acknowledge the destroyers going to ultimately take them here anyway and if she thinks that’s going to stop boat will then presumably people stood on a boat knowing that I can keep them up and take them to the process in serum that money faster than 3G can’t one block now the difference between friendly honest cops here previous job was it might seem slide but it’s not not not to say they are using increases our business data and also accessible now remote countries in the world FS it’s not a signatory of United two more men esophagus kanazawas any entry doesn’t really be yeah I’m in Minnesota and it doesn’t make a difference the difference is that our granddaughter Clinton extreme graceful it wasn’t it may takes to announced why do nothing he faced in our students are and so it kills to Sabina city people politicians normal difference of industry rather than playing very strings of various burgers so east timor speaks to inner-city type people because it’s got friendlier face in my room but it’s still offshore cell processes we’re going to stop them from coming here so it appeals to a stubborn people to catch returns I wonder whether anything like the offshore processing and your detention policies were sent over the past 10 15 years have had any impact on refugee

knows well if you hooked at Australia alive that’s very difficult to measure the impact of deterrence mechanisms you don’t ever say you’re alone you’ve had to say extension certainly employer that’s why I mean zemanta temporary protection visas we then have temporary protection visas from 1999 and numbers of boat arrivals and off so they didn’t work yes there was a big drop of boats after Pacific Solution as introduced and some boats were turned around what how do for the dropping boats is actually pretty difficult to determine so you don’t believe that the acidic solution was just hot boy we had a suggestion today on radio the 97 votes will turn back wasn’t presenting solution I think it would be very difficult to say that I think the pressure things are that after a while about started to arrive again if you look at 2001 it was in fact a peak year over a decade or arrivals and some sectors around the world you had the invasion in Afghanistan short term improvement in security dreadful message would have been sent with the sinking of civ X being suspected illegal entry vessel unknown we over 300 people on board including around 50 children that would have seen that and these last two people impressed and pectin measures in the Indonesia it’s very difficult to say what really had the internet but I’m not convinced that determined mechanism is really working Tyrion since and I think it fundamentally immoral it’s a normal to us people who are currently as a means of deterring other people could be the purpose of the convention is to assist asylum seekers who asked before a son is mindful is not to stop political have to find the thing is stopping about you know Alaskan tree contrary to they are optically being a member of the having sons are some not the government and there are people too warmly Australia to draw penalty because we have actually breached a hold of its tributions particularly foundations attention which was introduced I do if I just my coffin sorry everyone I’ve got quite a really cheap me throughout so my eyes are more rain just to give me oh god the enemy so many did the mental process your short doing my friend but there is a difference there because why not those camps were constructed to to to assist you the Vietnamese are facing very real challenges that insecurities where as the capsule to set up now i will constructed to address the livability securities of government of these papers well let’s talk about the solenoid securities I think we’ve talked about the framework from which this occurs and the solutions that we’ve tried so far but if you actually want to go to you it is quiet in the Israeli communities they defined in lots of juice i came home Don killings and I’ll get you another Indian River stuff you’ve got things on my side but a king one let’s read that phrase door whistling which you’ve mentioned to me this the squire of the Australian community takes many forms tell me what you think the message is behind the concern about migration is that refugees in particular comfortable having the Train twister there is some progress here as far as i can see although it’s bigger than progress nonetheless as far as i can tell that my students agree with all this to you cannot see any to me that that the Labour government right now some pain is the people’s prejudices as far as I can see where’s that some progress is posted for your mom a secret passages what don’t we swing is also so to mega progress but at least it’s up revolution having it reflects arms really just didn’t wear the Australian public opinion is right now that seems to me to be contested or not quite sure and it’s not good to add our on it so I’m sort of interested in where Australia wants to go on this issue and it was a Red Cross survey done a couple of months ago saying that four-fifths of Australians were we’re happy to help refugees resettle and the two-thirds thought the refugees have contributed significant links in Australia so where does that fit with obviously the sort of information that parties are getting right now but it’s been shoot class cool what role the media has played in all this and how call service trainings have been by their media weld imagine that the media is made up of many different layers to the

top to do you can go our own way down yes the circulating and of course talkin radio Bell Rock not only in this area that in race relations instrum threaten guilty rolls across the canal so you know you say the media the media is where we get our information front and provide some some states suddenly print later tests has seriously discuss these issues which one is it spring yet they’re very complicated issues into the UN conventions it can be interpreted that maybe same civil despise you know and it was some innocent the integration of carbon sit down a Philip Roth was very anxious to be seen not to be breaching name of Preston unit it was a mannequin so much blame rivals me it was a similar to the picture picture newspaper which is okay but I just I wonder whether others of your head and comments on the way the media service debate oh well we can t breathe slowly and with its Dina I was actually lorica that I was at the conference in Sydney the weeks ago that the Minister for immigration citizenship reservist Chris Evans came to speaker and he made it very clear at the fact that he would do a media stop at the beginning and all the media crowded around him outside the actual conference room and he gave this information to the rest and then came in to what was a closed session and discussed very openly and frankly and in total confidence so I can’t share with you today some of his speaking about the impression policy and I’m going to everyone in the world I to doing reporter sitting there now it’s not entirely clear whether he and Layton them or didn’t realize that it wasn’t a press-gang although there were no other pressing the room and it was so open France that you put imagine that he would have detected that he probably wasn’t meant to be the top story that any phase you probably all remember was the Minister for immigration saying that immigration has killed this government total distortion of what was real a real engagement but someone who I have perceived as being quite genuine about desire to really engage with the issues rather than sensationalizing many that to me just epitomized everything about the way immigration has played out by the menu here that it really is an opportunity to encourage sensational discussion rather than to prom you guys and encouraged by which an ounce for much that I think in this election as opposed to the 2001 experience for me giving a lot there behind I know there are still very low exhibitions Jack’s right but there’s also in scotland’s it’s got that contrary leather gets me that there actually are trained I’m in the way and and the skill a lot of articles have actually refuge the arguments throughout life two poems but i think this also seems amazing to be disappointed give us policy and later plan policies in my and the lack of information coming I’m not sure that I breeds that move forward to two stopped obviously and start bringing I mean because you actually say she’s actually like I hear your fees I see them I knowledge them and then correct that’s what she’s saying because she’s not saying I need the mice you know I got them Stan and they win correct because she’s actually sang people a misconception you have about they were Asian refugees is mounted well found you know flora was framed as a security issue which almost takes it out of politics as well to eat or whatever it takes if it’s a matter of national security oh it’s still wears out frame there’s an immigration issues which is wrong in itself but let’s condemn before we go guys order to salvage we have have a regular drama how many more that straight from united center you knew the whole thing that which thou income traction just before we go to questions I just want you to take us

beyond the whole process of refugees arriving here and our expectations and so on and so forth and ask what we expect refugees to do and to be and become once they arrive in this country this whole idea of citizenship course of Australian ization whatever that might mean and that’s surely one of the keys to how his whole process our faults and and Cuba what if we looked at your family’s experience so many of us would have memories of the FMS families who bought the hot back shop or who you’ve bought small businesses and became integrated very thoroughly into communities by means of that engagement but what our expectations once people come here well can I thought I was I think it’s really interesting that the all interested to see what others might think in terms of parallels between the citizenship test about it was really what was around the last election it compared to some refugee issue is this time out so you know just before the last election Howard government had introduced the new citizenship test or for more tips to require any person since it’s not a lot of choice series of questions and the questions all came from a particular book we set out what it meant to variances and the road government had promised that it would review that test when it came into office and there’s been here you may know I was on one of their members of the entity that reveals that test which was driven by concern various concerns in terms of the content but also as you back to your question enemy visual got a few genes and did this test discriminating in it the way for refugee communities and the statistics show very clearly that that that did on various levels only many refugees of course annoyingly literate in their own language let alone be able to readable to then be able to answer questions in English honor on a computer screen so as a result of that and Canadian report the government’s deal adopt significant changes to switch my drop your child will question tonight focus changed until you know more about just questions of Trivial Pursuit such a little straighter but rather about issues to do with the pleasure pain of tape on that account of strangers and to make that real meaningful beam ceilings and citizenship issues but also significantly and this is just coming to play in the last a couple of months count on he not placing any attention at all but there are announced significant new education parts for people specifically whether do community people who are able to announce it and be taught in language about principles underpinning citizenship and to be able to do a series of courses with questions that lead them well to be able to answer the citizenship test so a much more inclusive and progressive approach to saying if you’re going to come in here here and you commit to being a nurse Francis and we want to encourage you and all those capable members of the community you do a lot of the feedback from refugee communities when we went as a committee around sydney information wasn’t they really want to learn the information about Australia to enabled them to become absorbed in the community so I think to your question about inclusive framework for both refugees and others who company in strawberries a really positive progressive way to being able to do that without marginalizing of stereotyping or other mean she can’t get done a few off the refugees temporary visas which a calendar and is awesome people up from the river you know listening not very well it was struggling to get over the review they’re still on the tempe business top travel slowly turned into a permanent one have been our bring their family one young man who do when you know cool about our thoughts on is now 25 and he hasn’t she was 17 and he can’t vitamin can’t bring them tough bleep it’s still at your situation so you can’t that’s that’s a warning built different databases you are get people off then he’ll become strong well perhaps my father Questers to pinpoint endorse a tu meri Ann because your parents I think were Hungarian refugees and you can we know but your family’s experience how much did it mean to you to your families to become citizens to become Australians what was the significance of that Kim um I’m very hesitant to generalize about my family and a lot of refugees but maybe I’ll answer that in a previous question different might be watching Roman Polanski films references a survivor of

the Warsaw Ghetto and we pick up we can demand them refugees will be demanded other people in Australia but we can expect I supposing there’s something distinctive about it there’s good and bad sides you know Polanski was really damaged by some of the horrific things that he had to suffer but because of his displacement also applies to Einstein Marcellus now there’s a credible resourcefulness and ingenuity and creativity that came out of that so that’s maybe what we can expect but I’d be hesitant about demanding much more than that Marianne your parents my mother was very much in my life but that’s been opening see my grandmother kind of eight children which is remarked with the Warner various sizes and when she died and she instructed his speed we wanted muscles relative but there was 86 descendants from my grandmother and we all hand up we all had professional drops they’re all contributing to Australian grandmother’s English wasn’t wonderful my gramma CC which wasn’t wonderful but the contribution they like you can’t it’s available so that’s not what you expect us won’t get generic boys exhibition at the national armory at the moment to really to speak on it over and over again the great contributions of refugees to a strong society look at the business reviews top hundred and calendar yeah it did every day ok let’s let’s just naturally with Laura average questions and we will try to get too many days as weak as we possibly can to writing microphones I think the first one distortion it’s Australian rations you get this phone number of refugees what okay so the issue of racism there I think we got to tackle that will say that there’s an element of raised in the any of this anymore because we’ve been politically correct mr. tsipras of course there’s an element of rights of roots and religion undoubtedly and I enacted at the beginning that I think this is the script that really has one troops trained in history in terms of the formation of BS frame and core and it really does resonate in different ways utilizing different language that cultural to us ask yourself how many Europeans have been placed in detention I think we want Holden to restrain one’s entirely such a say that there are other issues as well you know issues like feeling that there’s a lack of control and especially random found some people are so insecure themselves in whether their needs are being met if there’s often that sort of temptation to say oh look there these other people coming and they’re getting all sorts of things and so you know I think there are some other complex factors that go along with it but yes I think there is an element of grace the conversation so far after lightly being mostly about refugees and lee tim 15,000 per year that come first dr Chuck niche in here the total would becoming us out 150 acres around on this I couple hundred thousand thirteen years my question is for how long can this continue because this will reduce to 35 40 million by the year 2050 and when we get there let me do some way but in order to turn away put on the way to think of ovulation because many people think that this country’s cannot stand chem exam present population here in terms of food it’s a gun on the courtship on new century the no darling basin will produce about half what it does and by the end of the century may no longer be a home for agriculture at what country will be willing to sell screwed up I know that very much your ism well why actors Susie under the war population Australia’s triple for three times as much as it wasn’t when it doesn’t seem to me I can hear another 50 so long time it doesn’t seem to me that life here has got worse it seems to me that life here has got much better now there is a price for that and that it’s

the extension of the really big cities particulars into there is a price for them but the home what I would hope would happen if we do ever get the population policy isn’t that it will not concentrate on matters that it will concentrate on servicing the numbers that we have because that’s what we’ve been doing ever since 1945 we’ve got Benes better cities on then we have people have a very good example of shat out of my retention and then you cannot exert on the life that we trying to stop the the tremendous prominent exploitation is going on in southeastern queensland you know where there’s a city level where tourism right down to do southwest border and trying to ensure that the state governments at the Municipal Code take responsibility is deadline you know my blood supply yeah because the way that some cities have developed and sitting particularly has developed just creates problems do not create and it’s not just a matter of a long time it’s a battle of exploitative develop without due regard to human consequences and that’s something well you know we have David like a dog that’s what they should be doing and they don’t have one in yourself from the point of view of a refugee who’s coming by boat or who wants to come that is a applicant what is the practical effect what is a practical difference between the East Timor solution and the Pacific solution for example does he have a higher probability of getting to Australia under one than the other are their rights he will have under one but he did not have under the other and slightly different does one breach the lead to greater breaches of the convention than the other concert indeed helluva processing on what rights that will have of the Pacific Solution you were taken to Naru and you’re processed by death and they had no legal authority to do so UNHCR a process to the temple hour- that came through in a pit and they didn’t work within the camp are advising for they’re certainly worth a shot process an international organization vibration can manage camp so when which the renewal process fri dec no real legal authority and it was a messy process that was proven to be inaccurate people will sit to not be refugees that was overturned eventually it was over here right now access ports and no in solution of less for five years what I was suck it until us because concept nobody knows what will happen whether it breaches international law I’m not sure because I don’t know what anybody has to pick somebody up and then take them somewhere else to a third country and abdicate the responsibility by saying I’m taking you to its team or the processing center but you’re not mine because when I don’t want you to room the strategy retains up and roll you know processing we can still have their operations presumably you know it’s least 12 miles our party there’s a possible suggestion that they could just stay in East Timor I really not what is precisely but how many ended up leaving people in limbo which is what happened with the Pacific Solution this is radek view of the invention paying now all you had to do was to ensure not reformed or non return to the face of persecution and you didn’t have to go about securing all of those additional rights than adhere once you gain a connection with the country of refuge and as a gymnast it is not really what conventions about it’s not a good faith reading of the refugee convention what makes no room to a week sure we always assume I’ve been out cheers happy to the society to the skewer here in my newer was party to the convention on last the child at the time so they shouldn’t be entertaining children it is still a

party to the Covenant on Civil and Political Rights or the convention elimination of racial discrimination or the Convention against it did become a signatory in 2001 so where are the obligations that it’s accepted in terms of a person’s Liberty for example and Australia is really being complicit in a violation of Liberty we need sends people off to another country that doesn’t have many human rights obligations and farms detention centers it’s doing things that shouldn’t do on its own territory using another country to do it thank you hi I’m a question to do mr humanitarian visa program people then being recycled as refugees why they straighten up when in conjunction UNHCR I guess goes the question before about what can we expect from refugees but understanding is that places bill limitations on people with disabilities people that are hiv-positive children people could apply with their family and then find out that a member of their family gets into one of those categories and I just wonder if Matthews best place to answer that what that says and how that kind of affects our international and humanitarian legal obligations I’m not really an expert on the optional program but the stew has made very clear there is this element of imposing some additional criteria open of our town of being a refugee when we take people from offshore so we really are ensuring that will keep there’s a good fit because I don’t have to get a visa what’s your agency offices we have a group of people at once come get a pin to address a category like everybody else is possible but everyone else does Stephanie to a visa category and the criteria for the vegetable half-filled open-angle health criteria and and it’s a one you know it’s a 1 files or fast right here so driving shots sequence one fits all and the same family reunion our fall into backpacking trance get here and trying to get on the one hand you could say in a sense people from offshore it goes beyond our strict legal obligations under the 51 convention in 67 protocols but often you know that the two categories were certainly paid paid off under the Howard government the onshore and the offshore and the simply we’re taking the most needy people but as you said so neatly in that question often we weren’t taking or we’re not taking the most needy refugees you can use to give it quite a lot of preference to questions Karen which is your forces are because they work the other thing we’re also using it it’s like the third cutting up the day they were all writing implication that they had sought refuge there and therefore that were not in touch Google Shopping a settlement there are also some ways of argument have lost their wives before they get to illustrate and one of the problems of the present moment is that even when they do get clearance on Christmas on a CEO stopping things ratio hashed out about those with in question everybody I time behind me do you think that the latest wave of anti-immigration sentiment in Australia product is lie below here chillin marginal electorates since life is posted camera one well look though the polls are mixed on this and they sort of them are always the same questions are so it’s really difficult to determine public opinion but I can say that I’m a great i’m an avid TV watcher and this is a reasonable methodology i think ed McKay often uses TV to assess what australians are thinking during how it is and you suggest that people watching one home improvement shows which is just that they were looking inwards and they were secure insecure about the outside you create some water in their lives well for me there’s some continuity there with what TV opportunities are now but there’s also a little bit of difference which is being a signal is significant so if you if you want to compare and contrast public opinion and a lot of refugee politics in Australia 5 music going today you can look at some

like Gordon Ramsay and mastership you know they’re still inward looking to a certain extent or broad-ranging Matt Preston there’s still apparent in some ways but master chefs are genuinely happy a shovel kitchen like they’re so session you know some continued somewhat previous statements there’s a lot of similarities here but there is a slightly different posture and two slightly different attitude as far as I can see in terms of what Australians are watching and and how they you assault is really gee I guess I there just a question not supposed to the entire panel what you thought were maybe the key turning points which had led on this differ people to be used as a political tool so much like we’ve mentioned Paulinus and then the bus are people normally off the bus and how that was used were there any other events or insult think about where we are now there’s an election and all parties do through their private party politics you you don’t see that has shown strong tically strong feeling certain parts of one is the far outer western suburbs which is which has to margin suits of lindsey and the other i forget that that one is as the western suburbs deserting language they’ve never actually done I think that’s to seek seven of the others actually been freely the other is impersonal stuff and to a lesser extent which time the syndrome has worse Australia so will you wait a few private calling you see the issue lies the politicians of ponies and then my driver you