Mark Shuttleworth and June Arunga at Zeitgeist Europe 2007

Chrystia: We have one more session, and if we’re disciplined, even though we started late, we will have time for a few questions at the end I’m sure people have them It’s been such an inspiring a group of presenters This final session is going to be with two people who again have been selected to make the rest of us I feel like we haven’t really done that much with our lives The first is June Arunga Can you come up to the stage, June? June is trained as a lawyer, she is now the founder and president of a film and television documentary production company One of her documentaries is The Devil’s Footpath, which is a fantastic account of a 5,000 mile journey from Cairo to Capetown And she also is an expert on what seems like, and I feel bad saying this because it sounds like an ad for Sanjiv but she’s an expert on the cell phone revolution in Kenya So more mobile phone support, I think The second person who we’ll be talking to is Mark Shuttleworth It’s hard for me to summarize in couple of sentences all of Mark interests They range from actually having been a cosmonaut, I mean that, actually going up into space, and most impressively in my view, spending seven months in Kazakhstan I’ve only managed about seven days at a time Also, Mark is a great proponent and supporter of science and math education and South Africa He’s a technology entrepreneur, everything from internet piracy, to venture capital, to working on free operating software And we will have a very wide ranging conversation, and then we will invite all of our panelists onstage, and throw the floor open to questions MARK SHUTTLEWORTH: Thanks, Chrystia Chrystia: I wanted to start, June, with you And what I really wanted to ask you was, your work experience as a woman Engaging with these development issues What is the special role that women have in development, and in using technology for development? JUNE ARUNGA: I don’t really feel confident to say what the special role for women in development is But as far as my experience goes, I would say it gives me, people give me slack to say things because I’m a girl So it helps me get away with stuff, where it is politically incorrect in certain audiences to say certain things And also being African also kind of gives me some slack, because they say, she must know what she’s talking about So I have to be more disciplined, to actually do the homework, because I can get away with stuff But I don’t know if that answers your question But as far as the Grameen experience goes, I think that tells a story more about women’s role in development As far as my experience getting engaged in these things, that’s a very personal thing I was just curious why some countries are poor, why some wealthy, why doesn’t my country seem to work right, and I decided to go out and try and understand how the world works Chrystia: And Mark, I wanted to ask you, one of your goals, both as a philanthropist and as an investor, is to find ways that African companies can work on technology on a global platform Do you think that’s possible, and what particular areas do you think African companies might be best at? MARK SHUTTLEWORTH: No, I take a completely different view The first thing I would say is that we shouldn’t have the assumption that African companies can’t fare well on the global stage, in any kind of field And secondly, I’d ask the question, where are African companies going to be most likely to be successful Technology’s not necessarily a big driver for me in Africa When I invest in Africa, technology isn’t from what I’m looking for, except in the way that the technology can unleash the real potential of people that are there The mobile phone example is an extraordinary one in terms of unlocking underlying economic potential that was blocked Or media is another example of ways in which technology is helping to bring out the best of what’s actually right there, in front of us, in Africa But I don’t necessarily see Africa as the next Silicon Valley Chrystia: It’s not the next Bangalore? MARK SHUTTLEWORTH: Just because I’m fascinated by technology doesn’t necessarily mean I would assume that we should try and recreate that in Africa We should just look for the right magical mix of real potential and possibility

Chrystia: And how important is education? We’ve heard from Sanjiv about the role that the really excellent elite Indian higher educational institutions have placed in that country’s phenomenal transformation How important is that in Africa and at what level do you think it’s most important? Higher education? Primary education? MARK SHUTTLEWORTH: You couldn’t ask for better examples in India and Korea, for example, of countries that understood the connection between an investment in education, an investment in science and technology, and the economic returns that you can expect to see over the next generations from those investments So that’s a message that I try and carry to Africa as strongly as possible But that investment in education has to go to together with a real investment in economic potential, because education without jobs, without an excitement around jobs within the continent, or within wherever the focus of your investment is, just creates a community of people who will be exported, we have expatriate Africans And so the bulk of my investment, again, is in economic activity of all forms And then education is really be a catalyst to try to make sure that there’s a pool of talent to drive that forward Chrystia: June, your views on education? JUNE ARUNGA: I think that education is important, but I have seen that where people have been allowed to engage in commerce, and given the support structures such as, not just infrastructure, but even Telephony people who have never gone to school have managed to pull themselves out of poverty and provide education for subsequent generations So for me a big, Africa had this one foot in the Middle Ages, and one at the edge of the 21st century Both educated and uneducated people share in the Middle Ages experience, where many of them don’t have access to electricity and so on, and both educated and uneducated are sharing this edge of 21st century, using telephones for doing banking, and so and so forth That world was all changed, overnight, by the stroke of a pen, when the government decided to allow the private sector to provide Telephony Chrystia: Which government? JUNE ARUNGA: The Kenyan government, for example And so by law people who were relegated to living the Middle Ages life, and by the stroke of a pen, it was changed overnight, without the education changing, and so on And so for me, the freedom the governments have in their hands, the power to give the people to just engage with the rest of the world, is primary MARK SHUTTLEWORTH: So if I can define correctly what you’re saying, is you don’t have to wait to have a highly educated workforce You have to unleash what’s there, and make the rules so that they can effectively empower themselves, and then build an education system around over times Is that–? JUNE ARUNGA: To reiterate what Sanjiv said, I see poverty and its manifestations as just demand for goods and services, a lot of which our governments have just turned illegal for anybody to be part of It’s illegal to send text messaging in Ethiopia, for example How ridiculous is that Western Union is banned there Even in South Africa, kind of So there are certain goods and services that people need, and we have political systems that have banned them And so they can educate all they like, but you don’t have the ability to do with your mind what you would like to do on the market So you see these opportunities, you see ways to make money, but you can’t Chrystia: So really, do you think the first, most important thing is actually about getting the right government structures, at least to a certain extent? At least to stop preventing people from doing things? JUNE ARUNGA: That is so primary The difference between Mauritius why Mauritius was up there, and why we had, I think that software so cool I really want to have my hands on it Because there’s a caricature of the poor person that has been made– Chrystia: We didn’t plan this in advance, by the way JUNE ARUNGA: That it’s so hard to explain in many words, and that software just explained it But the difference between Mauritius up there and Sierra Leone down there, is just the government allowing people to trade That whole free-trade thing Is removing these laws in place that make it so difficult, for businesspeople, whether they’re local or foreign, to meet the demands that people have Chrystia: And why do you think there are so many bad governments? Are there elites that benefit from these laws that block wider progress, or is it just lack of understanding? JUNE ARUNGA: I think that’s a really complex issue There’s a historical context to it It’s a very complex question, I don’t know if I’m– MARK SHUTTLEWORTH: The really important thing to realize as an investor in Africa, is that you have the choice of regulatory regimes, right? It’s not like China, where you have the advantage

of a common market A huge, quite diverse underlying, but fundamentally a common market In Africa, you have a tremendous ability to choose where you direct your investments, and so what regulatory regime will be working on that And increasingly, we’re seeing competition between African countries, trying to attract that investment, trying to understand what rules they need to create to unlock their potential, and to attract investments So this perception of Africa as a place of institutional bad government is quite mistaken It’s a place of very diverse governments And you can make it work for you So Sanjiv was saying that he’s able to do business in Africa without having to break ethical rules, or formal government rules, right? Chrystia: And which country right now do you think is the best one to invest in? MARK SHUTTLEWORTH: Botswana, for example, is a great example of a country that is a small African country that is beautifully run There are things that we can criticize about them, without a doubt They have a horrendous HIV infection rate But it has had a stable democratic government for a long time, a very open economy, and the people have benefited tremendously from it Mauritia is another example Basically setting itself itself up as a conduit for investment into the continent And so you certainly can find non-obvious places to go to establish infrastructure, establish a brand, and so on Chrystia: What’s the worst place? Is there a place you wouldn’t touch right now? MARK SHUTTLEWORTH: No, because I fundamentally believe that economic engagement is the right way to bring about change And it’s when you when you create a policy of– Chrystia: As a businessman, though What, maybe I’ll rephrase What would be your least desirable– MARK SHUTTLEWORTH: I absolutely invested in Zimbabwe It’s a country with enormous potential that’s just north of South Africa’s borders and whatever, it has tragic and appalling governments right now, but that will change And so I have to believe that there will be a reversion to the mean, and possibility there Chrystia: I just want to ask June, will you take on my question of what is the worst country? A place that you wouldn’t advise people to do business in? JUNE ARUNGA: I don’t know I think business people are most in touch with the realities of things on the ground, more than pundits like me But I think Zimbabwe is scary at the moment And so unpredictable I would say it sounds like a very risky place to to try and own something, anything, forget a business MARK SHUTTLEWORTH: It is, but if you think about this, in the business world we have evolved tools to deal with risk And once you understand that, once you realize that the place where value is created is the place that changes the greatest This picture that was on the screen here shows you that the inevitable migration of people in Africa is along that coast to the top left corner Folks in Africa have exactly the same aspirations, exactly the same human potential They will make that journey And so if you’re investing there right now, you’re going to be carried with that momentum We’re starting to see very big global companies discover this, and discover that all the rules of unlocking local talent and so on, apply just as much to Africa as they do elsewhere I’m very confident in it as an investment destination Chrystia: June, you’ve done some work, I think, on immigration What role do you think that immigrants are playing, and are we seeing some of that money and knowledge feeding back in the form of remittances, and knowledge exchanges JUNE ARUNGA: I think the primary role that immigration plays is actually manifesting the competition between legal assistance, basically What people choose as a place with rules they’d like to under We’re seeing the biggest migration in the world, basically I’d like to see that done with the [? software ?] that was shown earlier But if there was an arrow, the fattest one would be going to America And people can say whatever they like about America, but people make this choice They hear it from their relatives or whatever, it’s by word of mouth, but they made the choice, and they moved there, they decide to take their brains there One of the path things that fascinated me when I was young, was that I’d have relatives who had PhDs stay in Kenya, be unemployed 10 years, have my mother, who was just a civil servant, have to support them But the moment they went to America, whether as illegal immigrants or as legal immigrants, everything changed This person, same brain, just crosses over there, and suddenly they blossom, and make a ton of money And I wanted to find out what that was about So one big role is that it shows within Africa, or as people move to other places, just like the movement of capitol, where people find most conducive to create value

And secondly, I think that even though people complain about brain drain, I would say that if you can move your brilliant brain from point A to point to B, and earn enough money to actually feed your family back home, send them to school, it makes more sense then all of you staying in this one place, where nothing is going for you, and all dying So I think that people being able to move to other places and be able to support their families is very valuable Those remittances, money used to start businesses, that money, it’s a lifeline So it’s a great way for governments to compete, and people are forced to think, what’s wrong? Why we losing people? And probably it’s a drive over [UNINTELLIGIBLE] that way Chrystia: So that’s really interesting, you think this concern that we’re sometimes hearing, for example, around the NHS, that bringing African medical staff to Britain is really quite unfair to the people it’s addressed at JUNE ARUNGA: When African doctors and nurses started moving, I will just say Kenyans, primarily, because that’s what I’ve researched, when they started moving, the Kenyan government was forced to ask what they were doing wrong to lose those doctors It forced a lot of reforms within our healthcare policy, and now doctors have been given more freedom to be able to staff private hospitals if they want, licensing is much easier to partner with foreign doctors, they wanted to use better technology, they wanted to have access to models of doing their work that they would find beneficial, and that would meet market demand And that would not have happened it they just weren’t able to leave So I think that people’s hearts always remain at home, even when they leave Especially if you’re a doctor, you know how much good you could do, after especially you’ve come out here, and seeing just what’s available, and so on, and so forth And when you can be a part of that conversation, because somebody is now realizing that their policies are what sent you off, then you have a chance to then make your voice So I think that the constituency of doctors who have moved out have found a very vital, the industry association that’s forming is a very powerful lobby for reform after they leave I think that’s a really fascinating perspective on it We now have, we had a red light, we have actually ten minutes before our session is meant to end at 1:45 My one key duty that I’ve been charged with is ending promptly, but I’m really pleased that we do have 10 minutes for questions and answers So if the other panelists could come join us And please, now’s your chance to ask questions Only ten minutes of these incredibly fascinating people with diverse experiences If you could, when you ask a question, please direct it at a specific person, or maybe at two specific people If everyone tries to answer, we won’t get through more than half a question Please! And if you could maybe go to the mikes it’ll be easier for me to recognize people AUDIENCE: Hi, I’m Martin Varsavsky from FON I have a question about Africa, and it’s, do you think Africans see themselves as Africans? Chrystia: And who’s the question directed towards? AUDIENCE: Well, whoever wants to answer Chrystia: OK, I’ll try Mark and June Mark, you want to go first? MARK SHUTTLEWORTH: Sure I do think that there’s a strong sense of African identity Obviously in the last two generations, there’s also been a layer of national identities and divisions imposed upon that But I think that doesn’t penetrate very deeply into the psyche So I would look for it in 100, 150 years, and say Africa will act and operate as a single entity Chrystia: June? JUNE ARUNGA: I kind of think differently Maybe– I feel more African when I’m engaging with the outside world, but I find it easier to relate to people from outside than with certain Africans, because when I did the journey from Cairo to Capetown, the diversity of Africa really hit me A lot of these people are just, they’re way more different than– Chrystia: We are? JUNE ARUNGA: Yeah, I think if we had that software, and we could show, you would see how there are ways in which people in England and people in certain African countries share more in common than people in one African country feel with the others And another thing is they don’t travel much between the countries It’s very diverse I find it hard to explain it, but– Chrystia: OK, Professor [? Rossing ?]

wanted to add something– PROFESSOR ROSSING: Some of the African scholars that I work with say, I long for the day when people stop writing about Africa They feel Africans of course, but they want to show the diversity within it You take the war in Darfur, you take the AIDS epidemic in Botswana, you take government situation of Ivory Coast, you always take the worst of each part and make it into the unity of Africa You don’t take the economy of Ghana, the HIV, 0.7% of Senegal, lower than United States, the wonderful government situation of Botswana which you’ve talked about, which is good, and all the positive things which are happening I think Africa is the continent that have done best in the last 50 years They started many countries from a pre-medieval situation, and they’re already way through the 19th century They’ve covered most distance in the last 50 years, and is really promising what they’ll be able to do And Europe in the middle of the 19th century, they had a terrible amount of war, you know, and civil wars, and all these sort of things This continent has been the worst for that And then there’s a lot of talent, especially a lot of young talent, which you would see And I would just add that what I see, also, African colleagues of mine who work on government sectors, the government now had to catch up with this economic growth Now we have 5% to 6% economic growth in Africa, now our macrocredit’s working, now we need to get all kids into public schools We need to use extra resources, we have to match up with the infrastructure with governments, better port function, and then the economy will flourish even more So I see a lot of positive things happening I worked in Mozambique It went from a disaster to a very positive situation today Chrystia: Please AUDIENCE: I’m Richard, I have a question for Sanjiv, as the business leader in this group Do you buy the notion that business, taking steps that spread well-being, that that is so welcomed by your customer, that it is an appropriate and a valuable contributor’s shareholder value So can you engage in multimillion dollar programs that don’t sell more mobile phone contracts, because they’re good things and your customers will welcome them? SANJIV: Well, as a business leader, you’re accountable to three constituencies Your shareholders, your customers, are your employees If you tilt the balance in the favor of any one of those, the equation gets awkward So you have to balance all three of them But I’ll speak personally as an individual, if I put my business hat away I think we have no choice but to make a difference in Africa We have no choice but to make a difference in parts of China, parts of India If we don’t step up to in this generation, when we have the wherewithal, we have the technology, we have the resources, then we will miss a massive opportunity Africa is not one continent We call it a continent, we try to do a paintbrush approach to Africa India is not one, China is not homogeneous I think as corporations, and we’re going to see a new generation of corporations come up, that are as committed to the social cause as they are committed to the economic cause And hopefully I can do one of those one of these days Because that is the kind of a commitment we all need to make It is not about charity It is about taking a part of the family we are all apart of in this world and trying to do what is right for that And that takes a lot more than what shows on my balance sheet, or what shows on my earnings per share It takes a level of personal commitment, and say, what are we really all about? And I think there’s our chance to step up And I’m not speaking as an orange person, I’m speaking as an individual I think we must do that Chrystia: Sanjiv, you’re meant to be starting a new venture in June Could it be along these lines? SANJIV: Let’s watch the space AUDIENCE: I’d just like to come back to David Miliband’s point earlier today about the principle of creating a culture where everybody can What do you do in a country like Zimbabwe, where the government doesn’t allow you to participate in this principle? Sanjiv, maybe SANJIV: Look, I think Zimbabwe is, we were talking about Botswana, Zimbabwe is a great country that’s been totally messed up Thanks to the government But it is a great country, we need to ensure that the people communicate with the rest of the world I read a lot about Zimbabwe I think it’s a wonderful opportunity for somebody to go in and ensure we get every citizen in Zimbabwe connected

with everybody in this room AUDIENCE: And how do you do that? SANJIV: How do you do that? Let’s for a minute assume we could take every school, every hospital, every street corner, we could provide connectivity to the internet And every citizen had ability to get on a mobile phone and talk That will change the country That will change the ground reality And what does it take to do it? Not a heck of a lot Not a lot of financial commitment This is a few changes, and I think people miss the point If you just say that we are going to provide 500 internet kiosks in five major cities of Zimbabwe And anybody could go in any time of the day and get connected to the internet And people start reading what is happening in the other parts of Zimbabwe That most of the citizens that are living there have no idea You will transform the country And I think that’s the kind stuff that’s needed Zimbabwe was a great economy It got messed up We just need to bring them back into the fold of the rest of the world MARK SHUTTLEWORTH: I think many folks don’t realize that the government of Zimbabwe has been elected through series of election victories And while those victories were controversial, they weren’t outright frauds And so the question has to be asked, really, how do we convince the people of Zimbabwe to express their own will differently? And there’s a certain amount of repression and so on But the biggest thing I think that we need to show the folks of Zimbabwe, is that other African countries, voting for their own leaders, are getting very different results And so what you’re really describing is the process of connecting people and showing them that the lives that they they lead are a consequence of their choices And that other countries from similar backgrounds, similar circumstances, are getting great results by making different choices If we do that, Zimbabwe will change extremely quickly, and the underlying potential will come back Chrystia: I’m a journalist, so I guess my job is to be the professional cynic among this group of very optimistic, energetic world transformers But no one has said anything about Eastern Europe or the the former Soviet Union, which is my area of expertise So I will quickly tell one story that backs up Sanjiv’s point I reported on the Orange Revolution in Ukraine, and I spent a lot of time talking to those student demonstrators who sat out in the square in the Maidan Nezalezhnosti, and overthrew what was actually one of the region’s more repressive authoritarian regimes And I talked to them a little bit about how they organized Because actually the Orange Revolution was the culmination of maybe nine months of regional protests that had started of in smaller towns and just mounted and mounted and mounted And I said, I mean, how did you guys have these protests when the cops could just pick you up, and beat you up, or they beheaded a journalist, I mean, these we’re not nice guys And they told me this great story about the internet and telephones coming together, which is what they would do, and this is a technique they learned from the Serbian student protesters, whom they met online Was, have your little local protest, and if your friends get picked up by the local police and thrown in jail, send out a message online, basically to all Ukrainians, saying, our friend Igor has been arrested, he’s in the Kremenchuk jail, and this is the switchboard number Phone it now And through the pure harassment of these local police stations, which would then get thousands of calls for the next two, four, six, eight, ten hours, they said 80% of time, the kids would just throw their hands up, the kids hadn’t really done anything wrong, and just let them go So that for me but a great story about how very simple technology-enabled forms of protest can be effective On that note, I’m afraid we probably have to go We’ve run out of time If I could just say two things, first of all, we have an hour and fifteen minutes for lunch, the next session is absolutely fantastic It’s called, Let Me Entertain Me I can’t think of anything more thrilling after lunch It’s going to be hosted by Dr Patrick Dixon, who is a noted Futurist, and, I am asked to let you know, one of the twenty most influential business thinkers alive So I’m sure the other nineteen are here as well And before people do you go for lunch, could I just ask everyone to pause for thirty seconds and say thank you very

much to our fantastic group of people