"The Journey Through Workplace Inequality" by Daisy M. Jenkins, Esq.

good morning how are you good good I you know when I saw all of you coming I said wow my name gets around and then she said oh you get a certificate so uh ah so I’m not the draw okay got it got it well I am delighted to be able to share with you my journey through inequality I pull no punches and so buckle your seats and let’s go for this wonderful ride through my journey okay let me make sure I’m getting this right aha so introducing myself you’ve already had an introduction I advise healthcare executives nationwide and I’m also a social activist especially against any form of injustice and so as you can imagine in today’s environment I stay pretty busy and so I’m going to walk you through the Affirmative Action to diversity and inclusion continuum, I’m going to share some first-hand experiences of things that have happened during my journey, talk about the barriers to workplace equality and then especially focus on the fact that leadership matters and then I will talk about my commitment and advocacy for equality and it’s very important for me and in today’s environment it’s especially important I happen to have two sons and six grandsons so every day I’m checking on them are you okay you know don’t put your hood on don’t do whatever and because lord knows the world has not seen the Vengeance anyway that’s a whole that’s a whole other topic okay, so Affirmative Action I’m sure you’ve you’ve had speakers before and and they’ve told you the definitions of these things and and in the USA the Affirmative Action really kind of – and I’m gonna show you a continuum in a moment in the 70s – and it was really to create a moral obligation to hire the disenfranchised and that time it was mostly referring to minorities, sexual orientation and disabilities and so forth and so it was really to kind of correct some of the the previous practices of racial or discriminatory hiring and firing so that was a legal aspect so it was a moral obligation with some sanctions if you didn’t necessarily comply. Diversity – diversity came a little bit later on the scene and it’s kind of interesting by the way I was born in 1948 so I’m 70 for all of you who were wondering how old is she and I’m sure you weren’t even wondering that but I’ve been through it all so when I talk and and and I’m gonna say this and one of my law school classes and by the way I will go back and forth one of the professors was saying that during the period of Jim Crow and so forth if you were black and you went to a restaurant you could do takeout and show that you know that was no problem and I’m like excuse me? Takeout? I was born in Georgia that might have been a greasy hamburger somebody throws at you so don’t call it take out it wasn’t Burger King all of those things so anyway I’ll go back and forth on that so that was kind of that era diversity was supposed to bring in inclusion in fact inclusion wasn’t talked about as much but it was more you know it’s a okay we’re gonna bring in when we talk about Affirmative Action people get to get offended because they just think it’s talking about minorities and women so when we say diversity we mean everyone everyone’s included in that and and so it encompasses economic, education, generational differences and so forth so it was to embrace all of the differences, value and accept those differences that people bring into the workforce that’s what it was supposed to do inclusion then comes on a little bit

later and it’s really we want to communicate value to everyone its diversity’s counterpart. diversity and inclusion, and inclusion means that we value the contributions of everybody in our work environment. the plaque on the wall says “people are our greatest asset” and we mean that when we say inclusion and I as a leader in a major corporation and actually started the diversity, was the first director of global diversity for Raytheon in 1998 and as this progression continued one of the things that we introduced was respect because you can have diversity you can have inclusion you’re gonna have diversity because it’s natural diversity is not new I mean from the beginning of man and woman you had diversity and everything else so anyway we introduced the concept of respect based on a survey from our employees when they were asked what was most important to you as far as leadership embracing who you are and what you bring into the workplace, and so they said respect. so we launched a campaign on respect. so let’s look at this continuum and I may refer to my notes here a second. so first of all you had the push factors, and the push factors are those that say you know not only is it a moral obligation but if you don’t do it there are some consequences. so, Roosevelt in 1941 introduced an executive act to end federal employment discrimination and discrimination in the Armed Forces and a lot of people will say you know that was so great of Roosevelt, it was just so wonderful. and it was, however there’s a pull factor on that one too because of war and there weren’t enough white men to fight in those wars so they needed some brothers to come in and join the action. Roosevelt was also told by A Phillip Randolph – does anybody know who A. Phillip Randolph is? he was one of the leading labor activists of African Americans way back when and he had also threatened Roosevelt that if you don’t do something he actually was leading the sleeping car porters. he said I’ll bring a hundred thousand black people to Washington and will march if you don’t do something. I guess Roosevelt thought about that and said a hundred thousand black folks? I’d better pass something. so he passed that act and so that was 1941. so then in the 1960s the civil rights movement began and the civil rights movement was really about how do we bring about, how do we end segregation and discrimination and it was primarily at that time a black movement. I mean the Martin Luther Kings and Jesse Jacksons, John Lewis and others who were fighting for equality for black people – a fight that unfortunately has never ended. and then we had the Civil Rights Act of 1964 and dear Lyndon Johnson, and the Civil Rights Act was really, it was legal recognition of citizenship rights for minorities. legal recognition, and in fact during that period of time the Equal Employment Opportunity Committee was enacted and so there were some teeth, if you will, given to the Civil Rights Act. and then in the 70s, I just talked about it, you had affirmative action and that said you would hire qualified individuals. qualified was in the word. well, why would you hire anyone that was unqualified was always a question I had because people would ask are you qualified? well so anyway that’s

we talked about affirmative action so then we move over into the pull factors and workforce 2000 I remember when that report have you all had any exposure to the workforce okay mm this was a report put out by the Hudson Institute and it really was like the momentum behind bringing diversity into the workplace because basically the Hudson Institute said several things one they were changing the u.s. was changing from a manufacturing to more of a service industry and it also said because of birth rates and things like that people of color and women were going to be more predominant in the workforce so you better start recognizing them and developing them and so forth and it also said that people were going to get older the age Americans and so as a result of that you had this institutional knowledge that would be exiting the workforce so they were saying to employers you better get ready if you’re gonna be able to compete and if you’re going to be successful you better start looking at people of color and women to fill those future positions so that you could have a market advantage and then you had then the diversity and inclusion movement that began and again the momentum behind it was a Hudson Institute’s report I talked about the respect and then I added this one about Google and Apple in their diversity reports because for years they had been trying to get Silicon Valley Oracle Yahoo Google Apple to hey why don’t you share your diversity statistics and it wasn’t until 2014 that Google and Apple decided to share theirs and I just recently read Google’s 2017 report and basically people of color especially blacks and Hispanics are still excluded from their workforce women have made major gains at Google I think they’ve gone from like 17% or something to 34% however people of color especially males are still excluded except for asian-americans questions or do we save them for afterwards okay any no questions I’m gonna move on so let me share a little bit about you about my journey through these periods of time that I’ve spoken about on the continuum so I doubt if there’s anyone there anyone in this room and most of you want that remember Stein fells department store yeah I knew you guys were kind of young so Stein fells used to be one of the most elite department stores in downtown Tucson and this was when to son I mean downtown was a place to be and at Christmastime Steinfeld’s was beautiful well lo and behold daizy goes to the employment office because dine fells was hiring and I was 18 and I’m like I got a job there so I go to the employment office and now remember we’re talking a little bit before affirmative action because we’re talking in the late 60s now so I go into the employment office and I sit down and talk to the lady and she calls the personnel manager at Stein fells and I’m sitting there and says I have this lovely Negro girl here her hair is nice she speaks well she’s dressed nicely and she’s interested in a job I mean you know like okay I need the job young military wife so what the heck so I go to Stein fells and I walk in and the personnel manager that’s where she was at that time I remember her name very clearly but I won’t say it in case

she has any relatives here and so and so she says oh my god you do look nice and you know you I’m as we talk I’m so impressed with how well you speak okay yeah learn that pretty early probably around 2:00 and she says you know what we have the perfect job for you and she says I mean with Glee you will make the perfect elevator girl and I wasn’t as poised and professional as I am today after years of grooming so I threw some tears in my eyes said you can take your elevator and shove it up your ass oh is that okay to have it on the camera okay good good and so and I literally almost ran out of her office and however when I got home my husband said there’s a lady called from Steinfeld’s department store and said you’re hired as their salesgirl and I was their first black salesgirl that Steinfeld’s soul stuff those little Oh men were buying all those little bikini underwear and stuff it was so cool the next big moment was Mountain Bell Telephone Company in Tucson they needed a test-case anybody remember Mountain Bell I know I’m really aging myself and careful about raising your hand cause I’ll age you too and so and so anyway I was a test case for the n-double-a-cp and so I went and I took the test for a service representative because they had never had a black service representative so I was told we’re so sorry you failed the test so I go back you know to the n-double-a-cp and let them know and then they also had the African American Coalition this was in Tucson now and so they says well they got a subpoena something they had to surface my test and show it to them of course I had gotten 97 out of 100 so then they said well we can’t hire her because her Negro accent will offend our customers so they were forced to harm me anyway with the Negro accent and you used to be able they had charms that they would give for people who sold the most phones well let me tell you me and that Negro accent I had charms everywhere I was giving away charms but understand that when I walked into the cafeteria people would walk out and those are things that were very painful but can you imagine if I could sell charms and I mean phones and all of that when people were treating me poorly what do you think I could have done if somebody was treating me with respect Honolulu Hawaii and this was I worked at Pearl Harbor Naval Shipyard I’m like hey I’m in Hawaii they like black folks here I’m good so my first day now it might have been the first week it was pouring rain torrential rain oh it was raining so hard and someone one of the women came up to me and said Daisy today is your day and I’m like it was around lunchtime today is my day for what you have to go and get the guys lunch I’m like excuse me yes we get the guys lunches and I’m like but it’s pouring rain out there they said well you know and I said well do the guys go get our lunch and they said no they don’t have to and I whoa hell will freeze over before I go get their lunch so they reported me I was deemed insubordinate but I challenged them and said you know I don’t mind going and get them guys lunch if they go get my lunch if they won’t get my lunch I’m not going so guess what I won and then women no

longer had to get the guy’s lunch well the guys didn’t like me for a little while but they got over it and I mean it was it was like this is not supposed to be happening in America it’s not supposed to be happening but it did and the second photo you see of me is I joined that EEOC committee so that hey I continue the fight so that women would not have to go get lunches or any other demeaning tasks ha affirmative action Hughes Aircraft Company armed with a master’s degree I was hired at the lowest level clerk couldn’t get any lower however one of the things that I committed I said I’m getting my foot in the door and in five years I’ll be in management I bring this particular period on the journey of my journey because there were some wonderful people who helped me along the way they didn’t look like me we weren’t the same gender they were considered some of the toughest guys in the organization I learned a lot of bad habits from them but they were great they were my mentors they were my sponsors but I can tell you I don’t know how many times I was passed over for a position by a male typically a white male who was less qualified and remember this thing about qualified so there was some career stagnation so I proposed that Hughes Aircraft Company send me to law school I think oh you kind of be kidding we only send engineers to school why would we send you to law school and so I wrote this white paper about how important it was and that especially if I’m going to be a future leader in human resources or whatever think about the value it would bring to the company if I’m a lawyer and I can help you avoid so many problems they said no so I got to thinking I think I had this legal gene and I said you know they’re at least been a couple of situations where I was passed over by somebody that was definitely not as qualified as me I would hate to you know try to take any kind of action or anything like that so they said okay we’ll give you a full sabbatical to law school so sometimes you got to do what you got to do Malcolm X says by any means necessary so hey now I went back I loved the company I went back of course they put handcuffs on me so I had to go back but it really I’m still using this to say that when your career progression is stymied and when you feel like there’s nothing else left but to try to take some action or to fight for what is rightfully yours so now it’s diversity 1998 I was Raytheon’s first Director of Global Diversity and I was handed a tablet when I asked well what have you done in the past and diversity and there were four sheets in it so it was like you build it and so for me at first you know people said you’re not gonna get any support I mean nobody really cares about diversity it’s just a name only but you know I said doggone it this is an opportunity to mobilize and to really help get this company on the right track in looking at people who are different and looking at people with value of what they can contribute instead of their secondary their physical features or the color of their skin or the gender or sexual orientation whatever it is so I built this diversity wheel and I think they still have it but

the chairman of the board of Raytheon was very offended that sexual orientation was on the diversity will and they said she either takes that off are you getting rid of her and I said I’m not taking anything off you can follow me the Lord I was praying please do not do not let them fire me but I you know I called him on it I said I’m not taking it off I’m not taking any of these off nothing so finally I guess good sense prevailed and it stayed on the diversity wheel but it was invisible I was the invisible woman in an environment that had hardly any women and there were certainly no people of color I would be at the table and no one recognized me at the table no one asked me questions when I raised my hand I was invisible because no one wanted to hear what I had to say it was very interesting because the person who was eventually and I didn’t know heir apparent to be the CEO of the company I happened to visit him in California and I said you know what can we just get rid of all ranked and you are not this mr. president blah blah blah and I’m Daisy and you we’re just the two people can we talk and I shared with him how it made me feel when he and others ignored me at the table how it made me feel when you excluded people who were very capable of performing at higher levels because they were not white males and in many cases white females but mostly white males and it was very interesting because this guy became one of the first champions of diversity and he attributed to that session so one of the things that taught me about being in a leadership role when you have to help make a difference is that it requires courage now this guy could have fired me too but he didn’t and we became very close and he said this mentoring helped me become a better leader and that’s why leadership for you in this room really matters when you are creating a workplace or a work environment or a work culture where people feel valued I advise CEOs the c-suite and I will have someone say to me you know Daisy I strongly believe in diversity and I I believe that women we should have more in the leadership roles and so I pull out his or chart and say you may believe it but I don’t see it and it has helped because sometimes leaders need to be called on like the googles the apples the Yahoo’s and and I could just keep naming you can top the talk but where is the walk so let’s talk a little bit about the barriers to work place equality I talked about the lack of leadership commitment already and then there’s this social conditioning this conscious or explicit bias where people know they don’t like people for whatever reason I don’t like you because we’re not the same religion I think all Muslims are terrorists I think black men are thugs I think and it goes on and on and as a result of that I treat people the way I feel that conscious bias that I carry around with me and then there’s

the unconscious bias and by the way we all have these it’s where I believe my beliefs and and my attitude toward people I don’t necessarily recognize it but when certain people come around me I get scared and I treat them differently I’m not sure what it is I wasn’t taught that way and I have don’t have a prejudiced bone in me but it’s something about them that terrifies me and then of course there’s that institutional and systemic phobias and bias I in high school in California even though I graduated as one of the valedictorians and everything my counselor said I was not college material but you know what Daisy you could be and trust me I’m not in any way making disparaging marks about remarks about these particular fields but you could be a good nurse’s aid and and you could be a second you could even aspire to be a secretary but you can’t go to college because you’re not college material and then we had these culturally biased tests I’ll give you an example so the test says they will give you a place setting and there’s a plate there’s a knife there’s a fork a napkin and they ask you well what’s missing well you know I come from humble beginnings and with the plate and a fork well guess what when it said nothing nothing was missing because everything that I was used to was at the table so why would that determine how I would get into college it’s just anyway and then there are these unwritten rules in the work environment and anyone who’s worked in corporate America I’m nodding at a dear friend over here we worked together for a while and they have so much prevalence in how things go in the work environment they’re not those plaques on the wall that say we value everybody it’s what people in leadership especially come into the workplace and some of those unwritten rules that they enforce that deny opportunity to people who they see as different so I’m going to give you an example so in 2007 I was to set two suns woman of the year come meet and there were two men one was a man of the year and the other was the founder so this is an example I said unconscious bias some people say well seem pretty conscious to me but anyway so one of the things that they do is that they send a limousine to pick up these esteemed Award winners and so my family had flown in and everything and I said oh yeah you know the limo is coming soon so in my circular driveway this limo comes in I does it look like it’s what nineteen what sixty-seven or something I don’t know and I’m like and my sister is like oh is that the limo now remember this is 2007 so we get in the limo I’m a little embarrassed so we get to La Paloma the men of the year come look at what they’re in 2007 sleek black limos and Here I am in this buggy how do you think that made me feel that’s unconscious bias it says it’s okay I mean she’ll be fine if we send her there’s deadbeat limo I was gonna say something else but I know I’m on camera conscious bias pay

equity for women in particular it is known that women make less for doing the same work and it was something that as a leader I really pushed hard and fought against but I want this is mm what are we 18 black women on average 63 cents to the white male dollar what do you think it is in and by the way women on average it’s 80 cents what do you think it is in Louisiana guess lower 47 cents what about DC 52 cents they ran this test on 25 states unfortunately Arizona wasn’t one of them and so but again this is conscious bias so I’m gonna ask you a question where does Starbucks fit yes is that conscious or unconscious yeah I I’ve seen people when someone comes on the airplane of Muslim descent and I’ve seen people you know if you own the Southwest flight it’s like you can hear them say oh god don’t let me sit here conscious or unconscious conscious bias and some of it is perhaps unconscious but these are the things that impact the lives of people on a daily basis and it worries me all of my grandchildren are biracial and so I don’t care that they’re biracial a bullet doesn’t make that kind of distinction and it’s a shame I used to have to worry about my sons and grandsons driving getting their drivers license that was like terror terror for me but now it doesn’t matter whether they’re eating drive it walk it talking whatever so that’s why I want to talk about leadership and why it matters leaders should be intentional as a role model in cultivating a workplace of inclusion action speaks louder than words I tell anybody talk is so cheap and if you’re a leader in a company you should be the biggest champion of diversity you shouldn’t just relegate it to human resources and say you guys take care of it it’s not the way it’s supposed to be I think leaders and individuals who are in a role that affects the lives of other people should take a self-assessment of themselves and say what am i bringing what biases am i bringing into the workplace that could impact other individuals take personal accountability for diversity and inclusion and then hold your leadership team accountable there should be a success indicator for diversity as part of the company strategy I bet you Starbucks will have one soon after you have to close 8,000 stores for diversity training yeah would have been a nice gig for me but anyway and that’s okay my business is doing good and so and then the board representation it’s still horrible for women and people of color I think they’ll get these presentations right okay so I won’t go through all of these I say define diversity inclusion as broader than gender and race or sexual orientation but it can’t be defined by

white guys who all went to different colleges it has to be defined by individuals and if there’s a black leader it can’t be for blacks who went to a different colleges or Asians or whatever discrimination takes many forms and there are still black leaders who are afraid to hire other blacks even though they’re qualified because they don’t want to appear as they’re favoring and be able to demonstrate the courage to stand for what’s right in an organization I think that’s so important I think there are too many chickens out there now too many wimps who won’t take a stand for what’s right because they are afraid of what does it do to my career or what does it do from my paycheck and and and I can say yeah that probably are some promotions I lost along the way because of taking a stand and being very vocal about rights but at the same time there were many things that I gained as a result of being someone who was principled and who fought for the rights of everybody in the workplace regardless of race gender sexual orientation religion whatever because we miss out on talent I remember working in healthcare and they says well we shouldn’t hire people with tattoos and I’m like oh what’s that got to do with the kind of care they can provide well people might get offended if they see the tattoos well makeup my long sleeves whatever but it’s just some of the things that we come up with a so ignorant and stupid when it comes to how we exclude people it’s so amazing that Gaius conscious and unconscious so let me tell you a little bit about my commitment and then I gotta stop okay so I’m gonna hit on one is that I continuously strive for goodness and one of my goals is to help change the political landscape that promotes divisive nosov inequality and injustice and it’s so rampant in our environment today that we pick on people because of their national origins or or we say people are rapists because they came from Mexico it’s I mean these are things that which is we can’t allow it to continue so my commitment is that I’m going to stay on that dadgum battlefield especially to save and revitalize public education which is under attack which means that children in poverty will not have the same quality of education as children who can afford to go to private schools somebody’s got to be there we got to end the school to Prison Pipeline where eight year olds and seven year olds are being arrested it’s insane and then the fight against mass incarceration of men and women of color so just not a plug for my books but just thought I’d show you within the walls a journey through sexism and racism in corporate America is a novel about the experiences of diverse individuals in the workplace it’s a story it doesn’t give anybody this guilt trip and the green machine is about the mass incarceration of black males and some of the stories are based on a year-long series of interviews and I do a lot of writing about issues that affect especially my community so that’s it that’s my story and I’m sticking to it yes yes ma’am in the back behind you so there are a couple of things one is that I’m a person of faith and so I rely on that I’m also a fighter and so you know

I I did a presentation to about 150 women last night and I said for me no means not over so when someone tells me no I will fight like heck to make sure that you know it’s it’s corrected it hasn’t been easy there are times as an executive I have literally gone into the parking lot in my craw in my car and wept over things that were happening but I didn’t want it to happen inside get myself together go back in and continue fighting that’s what it’s about it’s it’s it’s it’s to create change the right change yeah so that’s the motivation you were next in Sarah what do you think are some of the differences in the challenges that we have here in the US versus some of the challenges that are in the same arena and other countries I don’t have to be politically correct or anything do it well we have one big problem that I can think of in Washington I mean it would it would be nice to have sanity in the White House again but I think the environment we have now has emboldened racism in our country I mean kids are being bullied and so this nastiness and there’s meanness so I can’t compare it to other countries I can only say that what I’m seeing here is a major setback it’s a major regression and I am tired as hell of it and we’ll continue to fight against it and I’m you know there are some days I cannot watch CNN I never watched Fox anyway but I cannot watch these shows because I get so upset so yeah so III don’t it’s hard to answer I I’m just disappointed he was here sorry so what made you start your own concerning phone was it who did it have anything to do with your fight for diversity I know it was about money it was no really it was to the point where I wanted to do my own thing and I was I you know I have the appeal and so I I grabbed it I want what if I want to work in my pajamas and Tucson I can do that I have great clients and they pay well so that was a factor but it the other part about that is that even though I’m a no-nonsense with my at you know my advisees I call them these are senior executives but one of the things that I tell them when they hire me before they hire me is that if you don’t want the truth you don’t want me if you want a yes person you go hire someone else but if you want the truth and you want to move in the right direction you hire me and so far it’s worked pretty good yeah so that’s that’s why it I continue the movement but it’s it’s an opportunity to do it on my own terms okay and then you how about your journey and education what did you experience I don’t have time to share one little so when I was in law school and I had this professor in criminal law and in criminal law we didn’t have all the tables were brown like a mahogany or something I would always raise my hand he would never call on me never I mean it was weird so I had one of my white friends I said now when he you raise your hand so she raised her hand she was sitting next to me and he called her and she said I’m actually raising my hand for Daisy and so he looks at me and I’m like oh God and I said because sometimes you know I need to think a little bit I said yeah because I guess I’m fading into this mahogany tables cuz you never call on me oh my

god every time he called on me I had to be prepared he called on me forever but it you know it was one of those things where why are you ignoring me and it took one of my friends to get your attention that my hand is up so that was you of a law school behind you and then now coming listen how do you suggest people talk to people close to home who have evident conscious bias that they express and you know whether it’s in the work force within your own family how do you how do you tell the how do you how do you because people get defensive about their sure sure yeah you know there are many divided households in today’s environment and and it’s it’s to me it’s having a conversation and and sometimes it’s very hard to have a civil conversation when you’re talking to someone that just doesn’t get it and of course they’re saying the same thing about you it’s it’s a tough thing but I I think it’s the communication and and and respectful communication I do not choose my friends by their color or their their beliefs although most of them we all agree but we have these conversations walking up Sabino Canyon I walk Sabena twice a week and you know we we delve into these different issues and sometimes people don’t agree with me and but I listen to them and I respectfully listen and then I share you know my thoughts sometimes has an impact and sometimes it doesn’t but I do feel it starts with respectful communication and sometimes you just can’t break through I mean there’s not going to be that agreement people have been so conditioned and and socialized to have these issues I travel I’m in a business suit I’m in a hotel and I’m walking down the hall and I have my briefcase in my bag this couple comes out of their room sees me walking down the hall moves back into their room and lock the door and I’m like Louise get a grip so I don’t know I it starts with communication because I do have you know many friends who don’t agree with me and think I’m a fuzzy-headed liberal Oh sharks okay when you in your presentation especially you mentioned that and I’m glad the displacement that diversity means everybody it’s for the sake of my question when I am talking to about diversity I will refer you power flow become usable my question is you as somebody who’s a very strong advocate of diversity you must have Riyas on with many other people as well so do you have ever come across an unconscious bias for hiring diverse people that’s something I was wondering about and so I say again I have I kind of somebody who’s a very strong advocate of diversity have you ever felt or sensed an unconscious bias saved towards hiring somebody who’s not you know so so my personal unconscious bias yeah so mine are so weird I’m serious it’s so weird I’m not gonna even share because it’s so weird because you guys are gonna and I’m on take and you cut the tape no I’m a person that well I’ll give you an example so I in my role I hired executives and so now I didn’t care what they look like you know whatever but I would look at their teeth I told you it was not so and if I didn’t think they had good hygiene does that is that’s an unconscious bias is it conscious or unconscious oh I have blown

my cover but and I mean seriously I have looked at a resume and and I saw someone said and this is another thing when you do your resumes you be careful about these things that said and and this brought up my bias he said his resume said he was a member of the Young Republicans and I’m like I’m gonna hire him and then I had to catch myself and like that’s not right he had every right to be a member and and he was hired and and was a great guy but unconscious bias could have gotten in the way of him getting a job that he was highly qualified for you